#cutforcena

MooseNugget wrote:

Perfect Form Razor wrote:

No, they can't. If that were true, then whoever they put on a great match with (in this case, Benoit or Michaels) would never have bad matches.

Go ahead and you tell me a bad Benoit or Michaels match  

I'm not about to go through every single match they've ever had to find a bad match when LOGIC tells you that had to have had a few bad matches in their careers.

MooseNugget wrote:

Perfect Form Razor wrote:

No, they can't. If that were true, then whoever they put on a great match with (in this case, Benoit or Michaels) would never have bad matches.

Go ahead and you tell me a bad Benoit or Michaels match  

Chris Benoit vs. Ken Kennedy
Shawn Michaels vs. Ken Kennedy.

Wasn't hard >_>.

I know you hate him, but those where good matches. Jesus christ

Nope. Distinctly remember a really bad HBK vs. Kennedy match from a RAW.

I remember a pretty damn good match on RAW between HBK and Mr. Kennedy. I also remember a good Chris Benoit vs Kennedy match. AND A REAL GOOD Taker vs Kennedy match

This entire line of reasoning is flawed, anyway. There's such a thing as an off night, or bad chemistry, or any number of reasons that a match can suck that have nothing to do with the talent of a performer. Certain wrestlers can and do carry weaker performers, and good bookers will pair people up knowing that a more experienced wrestler can and will help out someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Someone has to call the moves, someone has to do the big spots or take the big bumps. The best matches are done with both guys carrying they're weight, but if you honestly think there's no situation where one wrestler carries another, you're delusional.

In Cena's case, however, it's not so much that he's being carried. Cena can do the work, and he knows how to put together a good match. As long as he's been performing, of course he's got that stuff down, and he has for a while. However, he does sometimes struggle with making the other guy look good, which is why he'll have bad matches with guys like Miz, or Orton, or someone like that (not always, but his bad matches tend to be with these types of guys). Then he goes out and has great matches with Punk, Bryan, or Cesaro, not because they're carrying him, but because they don't need him to help them look good. Both guys shine on their own, and it shows.

I do have to disagree with Razor saying Cena's matches with Orton and Sheamus have been great. These guys have had good matches, sure, but anyone who says the Rumble match was good is on something. That match was awful for where it was on the card, and in no way capitalized on the "personal" storyline that built to it. The match was disjointed and flowed terribly, and even if you watched it on mute it was pretty weak. They've had good matches elsewhere, the Raw match was good (not great, but good), and they've had solid matches in the past. I don't really think they have good chemistry, though, since their styles do tend to be pretty similar.

That's some brutal wrestling right there.

I don't get how that's relevant to the topic at hand. Are you saying Kota carried that match? Because Yoshihiko doesn't need anyone to carry a match.

Well that is true according to Razor's logic.

Yoshihiko is a god anyway

I didn't say you couldn't carry someone, I said you can't carry someone into having a GREAT match. Yes, true, a wrestler can, "carry" someone, otherwise the term wouldn't have been coined in the first place. But you CAN NOT CARRY someone into a GREAT match. You can only carry someone into a decent/watchable match.

Also, Orton vs Cena at the Rumble was good, what killed it was the crowd reaction. It made it unwatchable. In terms of match itself, it was good.

imo, they have had better. The Rumble match It seem like a match you see on Smackdown.

They've definitely had better.

My main problem with the "Cena sucks" argument is you're not consistent in your evaluation. You hold John Cena to the highest standard and make a big deal of his flaws, but don't do the same for people that you feel are 'better.'

Cena is an above-average worker, but he wasn't always. Is he Chris Benoit or Kurt Angle? No. But he's certainly better than buttfucking Michael Elgin. There's a lot of guys that are sub 6'0" that Cena just isn't as talented as in terms of in-ring technician...

But those guys aren't held to the standard you have for Cena. They don't have Cena's charisma, ability on the mic, or ability to connect with the fans.

As far as the total package goes, Cena ranks #2 for me right now behind CM Punk. Bryan, I think is a lot of initial appeal and his ability to draw will die down.

bitchboy wrote:

I didn't say you couldn't carry someone, I said you can't carry someone into having a GREAT match. Yes, true, a wrestler can, "carry" someone, otherwise the term wouldn't have been coined in the first place. But you CAN NOT CARRY someone into a GREAT match. You can only carry someone into a decent/watchable match.

Also, Orton vs Cena at the Rumble was good, what killed it was the crowd reaction. It made it unwatchable. In terms of match itself, it was good.

I'm probably overrating it since I'm such a huge fan of they type of wrestling but Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat and Sting were able to carry Lex Luger in great matches.

John Cena isnt better than Michael Elgin, lol. I wanna see Cena deadlift someone from the apron into the ring while being on the 2nd rope.

I'm laughing at you right now FYI

I really can't see how anyone can defend the title match at the Rumble. It's one of the worst matches those two have had together, and they've had some stinkers. Orton was clearly rattled by the crowd, but even watching the match on mute it feels like a mess. On top of that, it was a completely tame match following an angle where Orton hospitalized Cena's father. I won't say the crowd had nothing to do with it, but the match doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny. Throwing the crowd reactions in with it is actually the only thing that makes it watchable. This is coming from a Cena defender.

Disregarding that, there are great matches featuring sub-par workers. MooseNugget provided some good examples, and I'm sure anyone here could think of some others. Undertaker, Michaels, Benoit, Jericho, etc. have all had great matches with guys who were nothing special when paired with others. Hell, even Cena has carried Khali to an arguably great match in the past, though I suppose it would depend on how you rate a great match. If you mean a match of the year candidate, then I suppose both guys have to carry their own weight, but I don't think anyone here would argue against that.

You're an idiot, Dead.

Nearphotision, that's my point. You can't carry someone to a GREAT match, just a good match. And don't tell me Cena vs Khali was a GREAT match. It was maybe a good match, but FAAAAAAR from a great match. At least not nearly in the realm of Cena vs Punk, Cena vs Bryan, or Cena vs Cesaro.

Even if you go by the standard of match of the year candidates only, in the past four years, including the current one, Cena has been in three match of the year candidates. First in '11 against Punk, then in '13 against Daniel and now against Cesaro. Cena has clearly proven he doesn't need to be carried.

Not to Dead, apparently.

Yeah, I never argued that Cena needed to be carried. He doesn't, and hasn't for several years.

So if we're saying a "great" match is of that caliber, then I guess I agree with that, as well. Personally I'd use the term a bit more loosely than a MOTY candidate, but whatevs.   However, if Anderson or Khali ever get in a MOTY candidate, or discussed on that level, then we'll have definitive proof that you can carry someone to a "great" match.