Note: Before you read this, I feel the need to say this so Bull or TJ or Dead dont bitch at me for it, I will be referring to the "IWC" in its CONNOTATIVE definition. As in, stereotypical indy fanboy that hates everything that's not Daniel Bryan/CM Punk/Cesaro/Ambrose/Ziggler. So before you complain about that, realize that I'm not referring to EVERY SINGLE WRESTLING FAN ON THE INTERNET.

So, I was reading the STP Lounge when Saintpat said something that got my attention. He didnt go into too much depth about it but with his help I looked into it more and found something interesting. It's all in this thread, but I'll try to outline certain parts:

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/general-wwe/565886-attitude-era-iwc-usenet-posts-back-archives.html

Now, the people on there pretty much outlined the entire thing in that thread. You can go into the pages as deep as you want, I'm on like 27 at the moment (yesterday was a no-life day), and they pretty much take excerpts from the 1998-2004 threads. But, for those who don't want to go page by page through that thread, I'll take some of the better stuff from their discussions.


So what this thread did mainly is it went through really old archives of threads, around 1998-2002, some of the best points of the Attitude Era, and it looked at how much the IWC bitched about everything then. It's very interesting to read, and some of the comments made can very easily be used today. Let's take some examples. I won't use any off the first page/post of the thread since I assume you will all at least read that one.

Here's somewhat of a general opinion (according to what I've read from more of their posts) on CHRIS JERICHO:

Quote :

how fuckin feasible would it be to have Chris Jericho as WWF champ?
sure, i give him mad credit for his mic skills, which are even gettin a
little annoyin as of late, but his wrestlin skills are shit! the ONLY
good move he has is the drop kick off the rope. his punches are lame as
fuck, his knee shots to the chest and face look pathetic and
that 'walls of Jericho' is one of the most ridiculous submission moves
i have ever seen. how does he, or whoever came up with that stupid
submission, actually think that move would actually hurt at all? at
least the figure-4 leg-lock really does hurt when applied right as do
other submissions. and like i said before, his suckin up to the crowd
constantly makes him look like a pussy. the way he lands in that spring-
board moonsault off the rope is softer than Downy-washed clothes for
fuck-sake. i know he's not supposed to hurt the wrestlers but he has to
make it LOOK like he hurts them at least. i don't care how much
screamin and rantin JR does, Jericho needs to improve his performace
skills dramatically AND he needs to turn full-heel. i can't believe
that no one else can notice these obvious faults. Jericho-->mic work '8'
-->in-ring performance '0'

I thought Chris Jericho was the greatest ever? You dick.

May 8th, 2000

Quote :

Raw was so damn boring. Is anybody else tired of HHH and the others
coming at and talking the same boring shit every Monday night? Give me a
break. And then Jericho comes out and says the same crap he has been
saying for awhile.

I guess people hated RAW back then too huh?

Oh look, another anti-Jericho one.

Quote :

Writers of the WWF, I'VE GOT 3 Words for you.......
Too much Jericho!!
"If a snake used your bones as a rattle, would you want him to get excited?"

Nov. 10th, 1999:

Quote :

Worst Wrestlers
Stone Cold: He's so over-rated, his gimmick is old and boring, he's got no
moves, the stunner doesn't look like a real move I could go on forever.

Compared to this, a comment posted about Cena fairly recently:

Quote :

He was mildly entertaining when he did the whole rapping gimmick but he hasn't even done that in god knows how many years, he's losing popularity because he is stale and boring now

Regarding whether or not Chris Jericho should become IC champ:

Quote :

Acrobatic abilities? By that rule, Jeff Hardy should be the WWF Heavyweight
Champion. He does not have good mic skills, he uses the technique of being
the sounding board for the fans. Anything negative said about his opponents
on the Internet, you can almost be sure that you will hear it from him
again. Of course that would please me if I were quoted.

A quote about a fan complaining right after a PPV:

Quote :

No Mercy?? No imagination more like. May 17 1999, 3:00 am

What a bloody waste on money, it wasn't even as good as a usual RAW. Last time I buy a WWF PPV.

But PPVs were so great back then. PPVs are only shitty now!

Some else is mad about the "current product"

Quote :

What a fucking joke Survivor Series was! The Gia.......I mean Big Show as
the world champ!!! WTF? WCW must be laughing their asses off big time. I
don`t know about the rest of you but I`m no showing Raw after that. Nitro
here I come.

More anti-Stone Cold hate

Quote :

I was sick and tired of Stone Cold, he isn't a good wreslter anyway. He has
just as much stamina as Chyna which alot. They both start out fast and end
up slow, most of their of their matches are boring.

Poor Chyna and Stone Cold.

Oh yeah, lots and lots of Austin and Rock hate, can't forget Rock who was more comparable to Cena than Austin was, though both get their fair share of hate:

Quote :

There is no doubt that the Rock is loved by his Millions and Millions of
fans and he is very entertaining, yet i think its about time that he
learnt some new catch phrases and new moves.

I Rocks matches are all pretty much the same, he lays the smackdown on
his opponent in the corner, he start to struggle, he then comes back
with a DDT, then a Samoan drop, then the rock bottom, then one of the
worst moves in sports entertainment today the peoples elbow.

I know it is what the people want and love but it is a bit repetitive

Rock only knows 5 moves? Blasphemy!

By the way, according to some of the posts on there, Triple H was the CM Punk of 1999. People shitted all over the faces (Austin and Rock) (Orton/Batista/Cena) and worshiped Triple H (CM Punk)

Ok, now let's try something a little different.

Quote :

What's ruining the WWE right now is their ignorance of the undercard.
Talents like Ziggler, Antonio Cesaro and Cody Rhodes are being buried in poorly booked
undercards, while we're getting Orton/Batista and Cena raped down our throats. tonight they
improved on that by adding the Shield and Bray Wyatt, but still
the rest of the show wreaked.

Now, read this:

Spoiler:

Eerie isn't it?

Here is a detailed review of Kurt Angle by a somewhat popular reviewer named "Captain Workrate" not sure how popular this opinion was, but here you go:

Quote :

Mic skills: Kurt Angle does have the ability to speak fluent English, I will
give him that. However, outside of pompous arrogance, he has no ability
whatsoever to display emotion. Compare him to Jake Roberts or even a Hugh
Morrus, and he doesn't stand up. Grade: C-

In-ring skills: He is incredibly green. He looks like he belongs with the
Natural Born Thrillers rather than with the WWF title. He needs to spend a few
years in Japan learning from people that know how to wrestle. Grade: D


Motivating the crowd: Just listening to the crowd response from Monday tells
the story: no one knows if they're supposed to boo or cheer him, even though
he's an obvious heel. That's because he has no idea how to work a crowd, like
Hulk Hogan. Grade: F


Overall: It's unbelievable someone as untalented as Mr. Angle could rise so
high so quickly. No, I shouldn't be... WWF is turning into WCW, and Angle is
their Goldberg. Overall, D-.
Captain Workrate

Sounds a lot like Ryback. Especially with the Goldberg comparison.

To end it off, a review of Wrestlemania 17, a very popular PPV...

William Regal vs Chris Jericho

Quote :

The match was mediocre.

Quote :

i could of swore i saw flight attendants handing out pillows and
blankets.

Shane McMahon vs Vince McMahon

Quote :

Vince is

> about to pop Shane with another trash can, and as he turns, a miracle
> happens as Linda gets up, and when Vince turns around, Linda low blows him.

Ok... seriously... who -DIDN'T- see this coming? Fire the writer who
came up with this predictable plot!

Predictable plots? I thought those only happened today?

HHH vs Undertaker

Quote :

this match pissed me off, why would they job hhh to the undertaker? what
purpose does it serve? the undertaker wont get a title shot so why job
the man who beat austin in 2 straight falls

Stone Cold vs The Rock

Quote :

I have to complain about the ending of Wrestlemania. I had a hunch they
where going to let Austin win, fine. I had a hunch he was going to turn
heel, fine. But, they lackluster ending was dumb. After the Rock to beating
after beating and kick out after kickout, why did they end it when they did.
If they wanted a good ending they either would have let the Rock win with a
spectacular comeback or have Austin at least win legitimately. But, no they
can't have a clean match or an upset victory at Wrestlemania. Same old shit
different day. Only this day was $40 down the drain. Anti-climactic ending
to Wrestlemania.

Wait what? Same old shit? Wrestlemania 17? What?

Another one about Austin v. Rock

Quote :

You know what? I was watching the match, and there was too much a
deal being made of Austin 'needing' to win the title. Plus so much
bad stuff happened to McMahon over the past week, and usually when
Vince gets swamped with bad shit, he'll throw a curve in the main
event. About halfway through the match, I though to myself, <you know
what? Austin's turning heel!>

Oh and one more about Austin sucking.

Quote :

Stone Cold sucks, Period!!!!
I realize Stone Cold had a car accident 6 months ago (real or fake?),
and maybe he's not wrestling just yet because of the accident. It was
good to see him back at Backlash in Rock's corner though.
However before the accident occurs, he didn't wrestle like the Rock. The
Rock comes out every Monday and Thursday and entertains us all with his
wrestling matches (win or lose). But, Stone Cold (before the accident)
didn't even wrestle much. All he did was talk his talk ("And that's the
bottom line, 'cause Stone Cold said so!) Big Deal! I don't appreciate
him because Rock comes out every week and kicks butts, and Stone Cold
didn't. Yet, Stone Cold makes more money than the Rock. He also has a 5
year contract with WWF until 2003. How could this be possible if he
doesn't even wrestle.
Let's just face it. Rock rules, Stone Cold sucks!

---

---

Anyway, I think I've said enough. If you need to see more, I posted the link above, you can do that. The point to this entire thing is simple: The IWC will bitch about ANYTHING. Think about it, this is the Attitude Era, the place that's supposedly the best point of wrestling ever, and yet here is the IWC of that time, shitting all over it. These weren't a few opinions, this was the general opinion. The thing is, most of us enjoyed it as much as we did because we were kids, and because of the fact that the internet wasn't as accessible as it is now. Think of that. If the internet were as accessible back then as it is today, this would be the general opinion. Back then, let's say 10% of the wrestling audience was a part of the internet community, today just about every single member of the wrestling community is a part of the internet.

How big would Austin and Rock have been if 50% of the crowd booed the fuck out of them? Cause that's the exact same thing that's going on today with Orton/Cena and even Batista. I saw a few posts on there too that said people like Grangel and other mid carders deserved to be in the main event. Sound familiar to the "Ziggler should be in the main event, not Orton/Cena" fans of today?

Austin and Rock were HATED on the internet back then, so was The Undertaker. If you don't want to take my word for it, you are more than welcome to prowl through that thread as much as I did. I'm on page 33 right now and I bookmarked it for later, but it's no doubt that it was pretty much the general opinion of the IWC that Austin/Rock/Taker sucked. But, they're legends now right? Because we grew up watching them. Just like today, kids are growing up watching Orton/Cena/Batista. And 10 years from now, they're gonna be older and they're gonna look back and say "WTF. Why did so many people hate on them? Did they actually get that much hate? Sheesh, it's like John Cena raped everyone's mom or something." The only difference between now and then is that the internet is wayyyyyy more accessible now than it was then. It's the same IWC.

I really hope this has SOMEWHAT changed your insight on how you view the product. I kinda realized this when I didn't watch WWE for a whole year. I stopped watching around the time Miz won the WWE title and started again at RAW 1000. I looked back on some Youtube videos and thought "Damn. 2011 seemed to be a pretty good year. You had all these returns, The Rock, JBL, Austin came back for a bit, HHH vs Taker (end of an era) seemed to be a great storyline, CM Punk held the title for a really long time, did the whole Summer of Punk thing, Del Rio looked great."

and then I looked at some of the things people had to say about 2011-2013. "Shitty storylines, HHH/Taker sucked, Cena sucks, HHH buried Punk, Kevin Nash should've stayed away, Del Rio is garbage, The Rock sucks" etc. etc.

Fact is, the product can be the greatest thing ever right now, and we will look at it as complete garbage. The kids of today can enjoy the product a ton, but the more they hear 60% of the crowd hating Cena, commenting on how he sucks, watching fans chant "You can't wrestle" at him... it's sad and not fair to them. If the IWC was as big as it is today back then, we probably wouldn't look at Rock/Austin the same way. I can only hope that 10 years from now, we'll see Cena/Orton the same way we see Rock/Austin today.

So when you see people post things like this:

Quote :

If the product didnt suck as a whole right now, people would actually be enjoying it. In order for the product to get better, you have to take all the feedback you're getting, whether it be negative or not. It's funny how this superstar is telling us to just enjoy what we're seeing on television without realizing that the WWE it's supposed to cater to everyone, not just a certain crowd.

Just know that there were a lot of "Dead's" back then as well.

tl;dr the stereotypical IWC fan sucks and if there were less of them, the product would be better. And if they were around back then, the Attitude Era would've been eaten alive.

I could tell you the typical IWC fans are douchebags in a lot less words than that. When I watch wrestling with my step-dad's parents, I enjoy the product way more than when I watch it while on here because there's no bitching left and right.

I feel like I've been saying this for three years. Haven't I?

I disagree with a lot of those opinions, but I think it's stupid to say that people shouldn't be complaining about the current product. Are we supposed to just sit and accept whatever WWE give us?

^ Of course not. I'm not saying you're not allowed to complain, I'm saying it's been happening for a long time now. The only difference is, the internet was much smaller so it didn't matter as much. Why do most of the "WWE sucks nowadays" people look back on the Attitude Era as if it were perfect when there was so much wrong with it, according to those same people?

Also, yeah, many people have been saying this for a while now, but it's interesting to see actual hard evidence of it rather than just speculation. Austin/Rock/Taker were the Orton/Cena/Batista of the IWC back then.

Yes, that is exactly what hes trying to say, if its indirect or not. Fact of the matter is, yeah, todays wrestling is downright brutal. WWE has its ups and downs, TNA has its ups and downs, the fucking indies have its ups and downs (unless you're PWG, having down moments is irrelevant). The reason why the WWE was so fucking good during the Attitude Era is because WCW was around to take away their viewers, plain and simple. Today, they have no direct competition and TNA tried it, but failed horribly.

People want the Attitude Era back because it had good storytelling and everyone on the roster had a role on the shows. Nowadays, the writing is bad, and some guys sit home for months doing nothing whatsoever

Dead makes a good point about the WCW competition because it's true. Competition benefits everyone, & makes wrestling overall better.

I love how that post was just a direct example of what this whole thread is about. You completely failed to explain why the IWC hated WWE/F during the time all these quotes were written. You simply wrote "NO! THE PRODUCT SUCKS AND IT USED TO BE BETTER!" really, if it used to be better, then why did the IWC hate the product so much back then?

Like I said, the ONLY difference is that the internet is more accessible.

10-15 years from now, the kids of today are gonna look back and say "Man, I miss the old days. Remember when Cena would come out, fuck shit up, and kick ass? Nowadays, *insert face of the company at that time here* is super boring, he's stale and boring, his gimmick is annoying, and he can't wrestle. He wouldn't stand a chance compared to Cena. I miss storylines like Cena vs Orton, now we have bullshit like *insert face of the company vs second face/heel of the company* that drags on and on"

Mark my words.

Oh and Austin did suck. His knees were so bad by the end he really didn't have any moves in him.

But if he returned today, he'd get worshiped.

Dead wrote:

Yes, that is exactly what hes trying to say, if its indirect or not. Fact of the matter is, yeah, todays wrestling is downright brutal. WWE has its ups and downs, TNA has its ups and downs, the fucking indies have its ups and downs (unless you're PWG, having down moments is irrelevant). The reason why the WWE was so fucking good during the Attitude Era is because WCW was around to take away their viewers, plain and simple. Today, they have no direct competition and TNA tried it, but failed horribly.

People want the Attitude Era back because it had good storytelling and everyone on the roster had a role on the shows. Nowadays, the writing is bad, and some guys sit home for months doing nothing whatsoever

Also there was a balance of the roster. Good low card, mid card, upper mind card, and Main eventers. The Attitude Era, The Hogan era and even to some points the new gen era work well because of a good foundation of the card. Everyone felt like they had a reason to be on the show. Today is a jumbled mess in the WWE.

Austin was a great wrestler in his time and always been amazing on the mic. It was just towards the end, when his knees were horrible, that he wasn't as good in the ring. Although he could still tell a story amazingly.

What made Austin great was he was a character of the times. He knew how to evolved his character, he knew how to hide his weakness. People should know I could give a flying fuck if you are the best tech wrestler, if you can tell a story both in and out of the ring than imo you are great.

Raging Bull wrote:

Dead wrote:

Yes, that is exactly what hes trying to say, if its indirect or not. Fact of the matter is, yeah, todays wrestling is downright brutal. WWE has its ups and downs, TNA has its ups and downs, the fucking indies have its ups and downs (unless you're PWG, having down moments is irrelevant). The reason why the WWE was so fucking good during the Attitude Era is because WCW was around to take away their viewers, plain and simple. Today, they have no direct competition and TNA tried it, but failed horribly.

People want the Attitude Era back because it had good storytelling and everyone on the roster had a role on the shows. Nowadays, the writing is bad, and some guys sit home for months doing nothing whatsoever

Also there was a balance of the roster. Good low card, mid card, upper mind card, and Main eventers. The Attitude Era, The Hogan era and even to some points the new gen era work well because of a good foundation of the card. Everyone felt like they had a reason to be on the show. Today is a jumbled mess in the WWE.

Not according to the IWC of back then.

Quote :

Which stars are left in the WWF that arent considered 2nd rate
wrestlers.
After you remove Stone Cold, Undertaker, Road Warriors, Mankind, and
Dustin Rhodes, everybody left in my opinion is second rate.
Come on The created all these little groups, like DX, the nation, Los
Buritos, and those silly South Africans to hide the fact that they all
suck.
Five years ago do you really think that the outlaws, or any of the
guys in these other groups would be considered first rate atheletes
Just to let you know I considered The Brooklyn Brawler, and Paul Roma
2nd rate wrestlers and thats who all these guys are comparable to.

Quote :

The DX horse has been beaten to death and needs to be dropped. Without Billy
Gunn, the NAO's are gone, Road Dogg has proven he is a one line wonder
what the hell does two tears in a bucket mean? ), X-Pac vs. Kane has gotten
old and DX can't win without interferance these days. And how long before
Tori, who used to fight for the Women's belt and now is nothing more then
background fluff, gets tired and challenges Steph for the title? Let this
stable die!!!

I don't think you're understanding the point of this thread. This isn't an Attitude Era vs Now comparison. This is an IWC of 1998-2003 vs IWC now comparison.

Same shit, same bitching, same things to complain about, different era. 10 years from now there will be kids complaining about the product and will look back and say "I miss when WWE had a good roster back then."

I remember when Triple H was over on the Internet. What a wonderful time that was.

here's a whole thread dedicated to HHH love https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.pro-wrestling.wwf/8ReuZsHeniM

He really was like the CM Punk of back then.

Look at Razor linking to all these other forums and discussions .

It's a shame there was no internet in the 80's/early 90's, so we could see what people were saying about Hogan then.

Every thread should be dedicated to Triple H.

Everyone bitches about something or worships it like nothing else no matter what it is, when it was or by how many.

I couldn't give two fucks what the next person thinks about it. I like what I like and I hate what I hate. That doesn't make me an expert or a noob. It makes me human. Each to their own.

^^ It's a general forum, not an e-fed forum, bitch nigga!

and lol, apparently things got really nasty on archives from around the time of the Montreal Screwjob.

and Fuse, you like HHH too?

I have always been a massive HHH mark, regardless of whom he's shaging.

Everyone is always going to think their era was great and the one before it and the next one sucked. It's how people are.

Razor wrote:

I love how that post was just a direct example of what this whole thread is about. XDYou completely failed to explain why the IWC hated WWE/F during the time all these quotes were written. You simply wrote "NO! THE PRODUCT SUCKS AND IT USED TO BE BETTER!" really, if it used to be better, then why did the IWC hate the product so much back then?

I was pointing out the part of my argument you bolded where i said "if the product wasnt such shit, people would enjoy it" when i was talking about why people are so critcal nowadays

Also, i like how the part of the "IWC" that's always bitching are always the "indy fanboys". Did you ever stop to think that not every fucking person on the Internet actually watches the indy shows and they base their opinions on what they see on television? So im guessing all the people that were complaining about Austin and HHH back in the day were pro-indy too right? Because all the indy companies didnt pop up until 2002.