so once again fuck Jim Cornette

What did he say that was wrong? Why don't you explain that?

the man is from a different era and he just can't wrap his head around Lucha Underground, because he is old he does what most old people do...he shits on something he doesn't understand. One thing I will agree with him tho is that he said it isn't a wrestling company, it is a TV Show. It is like the walking dead, sons of anarchy, it is a TV show more so then a wrestling company. Until they start touring and PPVs and everything else other companies do...it is a TV show more so then a wrestling show...and that is what Jim hates about it. He said it kills kayfed, makes the wrestlers look fake and phony. Saying that the backstage stuff takes multiple takes...which is probably does...but idk what the big deal is about it. Trying to give his pity to Jomo...Jomo is doing wonders for himself for a long while now...so I doubt Jomo needs it. He seems happy...if he wasn't JOMO would be back in WWE by now. He seems happy enough to promote Lucha on ESPN with Rey...so...yeah. Which Lucha needs to do more stuff like that to grow to get the following to get them on a bigger scale...either another network or netflix. Lucha Underground would be the only "wrestling company" to do well on Netflix because it is more of a TV show then a wrestling show. And I know Lucha Underground is bleeding money more then they are making money...which is why there was so much doubt about there being a season 2...but now season 3 has been green lit so things are probably looking up for them. And the reason it bleeds more then it makes more is because look at the quality of the show...its filmed like a movie...you know that isn't cheap. If it filmed itself like ROH I am sure they wouldn't be bleeding money...but they want this movie like style and it is both a good and a bad thing for them. That is his biggest issue is because it is more of a TV show then a wrestling show...he believes it is exposing the business....Newsflash the business has been exposed for years now. Lucha is the first real alternative to WWE...to every wrestling company actually...even ROH. WWE, ROH, TNA all look and feel the same...Lucha Underground is different. Which is something the wrestling business really really needs. Not more of the same bullshit because look where wrestling is now because every company looks and feels the same in North America. It is one thing to dislike the product, but to flat out and say everyone apart of Lucha Underground needs a nuke dropped on them...makes him look just as stupid as Vince Russo.

Jason Brown wrote:

Lucha is the first real alternative to WWE...to every wrestling company actually...even ROH. WWE, ROH, TNA all look and feel the same...Lucha Underground is different.

How is that true?

Ring of Honor is more of a alternative to WWE than TNA ever was. I have watched both companies and they are different.

Ring of Honor out of all the companies you listed tried its best to seem like a sport. Yeah everyone knows pro wrestling is fake but promoters don't need to throw it in your face with their TV.

It's like if you watched Game of Thrones and they decided to be goofy just because everyone knows what's happening on the TV show isn't real but a performance.

Oh and guess who's the number two promotion now? Yes it's Ring of Honor. They don't insult me with their television. They try to make what their presenting seem like a sport.

If there's a real alternative it's Ring of Honor.

WWE has become just like ROH. it just focuses on Wrestling...all companies have done that. No real stories, no real characters...just match after match after match. Which has always been my problem with ROH...to much on wrestling not enough on the other details. So I don't see how ROH is the true Alternative when it is like every other company. It looks and feels the same. Lucha has a different feeling to it. Lucha Underground can get away with stuff like murder because it isn't base in reality. Lucha has its own little world on its show which makes it feel different. I am not saying every company needs to do this...WWE would die if they tried it...but at least try to go back to basic wrestling storylines and try to develop characters  

But if you want to enjoy ROH for taking wrestling like a sport fine...I will enjoy Lucha Underground for its story arches, Character development and wrestling

Jason Brown wrote:

Lucha Underground can get away with stuff like murder because it isn't base in reality.

Just like something else I know

and the walking dead, Son of Anarchy, and other alive action tv shows. Because again it is a TV show more so then a wrestling show...so I don't see your point with keep calling it a cartoon show...because it isn't.

TL;DR for everyone:

´
Now srsly, saying Ring Of Honor didn't grow in the past years is like saying Donald Trump should win the Nobel Prize for Peace. Like, seriously. ROH is responsible for most of the stars WWE's presenting to everyone (y'know, Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins, AJ Styles). But guess that doesn't matter does it?

As for Jim, you can think whatever you want of him, but he's the one responsible for getting guys from OVW to the main roster of the WWE (*coughCena**coughLesnar*), as well as helping both TNA and ROH becoming more than just a local wrestling show (pity TNA couldn't keep up thanks to WWE "Legends" fucking them up, among other things).

You're free to think what you want on whatever and whoever you want to, but at least, if you're presenting those thoughts, make sure they're rational and coherent. All you've posted was pretty much random nonsense of "lol h8 just bcz".

Jason Brown wrote:

fuck you moose seriously. Lucha is far better show then ROH. And put it on bigger network and it would do even better. Not WWE better but far fucking better if you put that piece of shit ROH on a bigger network.

and ROH has increased its fanbase but I fucking seriously doubt it had to do anything with that fatass Cornette.

and I am not giving ROH about being a far number 2 because it isn't backed by like WCW. Because its not even on TNA's level when it was number 2...and even if it is...not by fucking much.

I try to watch Lucha Underground but I personally don't think it's any good most of the time. The matches aren't really wrestling... They're choreographed in a way that's weird. It's not much different, but it's there in some matches and it really turns me off. It's more like a movie fight scene sometimes than a wrestling match. Arguing taste is silly. Lucha Underground is a fine show that I don't enjoy most of the time. That doesn't invalid it. ROH and NJPW, to me, is the best product in wrestling. I think the growth for ROH speaks to that, and I think WWE trying to steal their talent speaks to that as well. That doesn't mean you have to love it... but not flat out lying about ROH's success would be nice.

Cornette did a lot to help ROH in the ways Moose described. His philosophy for the in-the-ring product are sometimes valid and oftentimes ancient and invalid. However, his connections in the TV world and his business savvy as it relates to wrestling helped give ROH the stability that makes it the product it is now.

ROH will be on TNA's peak level in less than five years and would have gotten their in less than two if Bryan's neurology tests came back with more favorable results. If CM Punk ever gets the itch to return to wrestling, he'll return to ROH. That would speed up their growth.

I mean, I personally reaaaaally dislike RoH, but to say it hasn't grown is really silly.

I didn't say it hasn't grown, but it hasn't grown as much as it seems that you are all hyping it up to be. like you are all making it sound like attendances and viewership has sky rocketed.

As for the talent I never said anything bad about the talent Zanon, so Idk where you are getting that from. I have stated the product is boring as fuck with its focus on the wrestling aspect instead of trying to blend everything together. Never did I say that the talent pool is bad.

I will admit tho I was wrong saying a few things just to hate on ROH just to try to get back at moose for what he was saying about Lucha calling it a mexican cartoon show...which it isn't. So I am sorry for that. But Everything Jim said about Lucha Underground I feel like he is full of shit about. He can have his opinion, but to me Jim just sounds like an old man yelling at a cloud.

Well if he's yelling at a cloud I don't know what's Lucha Underground situation. His podcast gets more weekly downloads than Lucha Underground gets viewers.

When comparing similar level shows 2013 to 2015.

Chicago is up ~450 paid people per show.
Philadelphia is up ~500
Milwaukee is up ~200
Baltimore is up ~300
Toronto is up ~400
Shows in Ohio are up ~200.
Detroit is up ~500
Shows in North Carolina are up ~100.

ROH is now running Atlanta and Las Vegas and drawing 1200+ people per show compared to no-shows run in those cities. This is a product of their growth.

like I said Lucha's problem is that it is on a unknown network. Put it on a bigger network, I am sure the veiwership with increase. And you are just going off from TV. Some people will go out of there way to find a way to lucha because they probably don't have the el rey network.


That is good growth I will give you that since you have shown me data and not just saying it.


Still I don't see ROH being the alternative

Jason Brown wrote:

like I said Lucha's problem is that it is on a unknown network. Put it on a bigger network, I am sure the veiwership with increase.

That's a nice argument. Maybe if TNA was still on Spike they would still be getting almost a million viewers. But I don't think that's true.

Real talk though maybe Lucha Underground would get higher ratings if they got in Univision. But that didn't happen. In fact the question was a few weeks ago if they were going to get another season.

To me you can't be saying Jim Cornette is an old man yelling at clouds when he has more people listening to his show than watch Lucha Underground.

Jason Brown wrote:

And you are just going off from TV. Some people will go out of there way to find a way to lucha because they probably don't have the el rey network.

Well Ring of Honor isn't on one network. It's on a different channel everywhere. And I don't get it. They make it easy for me and put it on their site.

Jason Brown wrote:

Still I don't see ROH being the alternative

It's not sports entertainment. That makes it the most different promotion to WWE of the promotions we talked about.

He is an old man yelling at a cloud because he doesn't understand Lucha Underground. It is different take on wrestling, something not from his era so he hates it because it is different. This isn't about veiwership because you are right he probably does get more views then Lucha Underground...but that isn't the fucking point...that has never been the point you just keep bringing it up. What I have been dog shitting about Jim about is the fact he doesn't understand Lucha underground because it isn't done the way he thinks all wrestling companies should be done. Lucha Underground has its own universe, it is not set in reality. They have super natural characters and super natural elements because it is a TV show more then it is a wrestling show. But to him he thinks it is exposing the business. I listen to his podcast when he was ranting about Lucha Underground and to me it sounded like an old fuck who doesn't understand something so to him it sucks. So stop bringing up viewership for fuck sakes, because we all know they are on a small network. they try to get the Univision deal but it didn't happen. It is about the product itself. Just because it doesn't ranking in viewership in big numbers doesn't make it a bad product. It's a damn good show on a tiny network.


Match after match after match is all I see on WWE now a days, Match after match after match is all ROH has ever been about. Yeah that sure is an good alternative.

I don't know what to say if you can't tell the difference between WWE and ROH.

Jim does know what he's talking about. He's been involved in Pro Wrestling for decades. He started two different promotions and he saved ROH from dying in 2011.

I get why Jim is angry. No one can make money in Pro Wrestling like they did decades ago. Maybe that was just meant to be when national TV networks were invented but who knows for sure.

Personally it makes me sad. If I put the effort Jim did in wrestling I'd be fucking pissed about things too.

Like Jim says all the time you can't put the tooth paste back in the tube. But you don't need to shove the fact that pro wrestling isn't real on a weekly basis on TV. I feel like with the type of product Lucha Underground they do indeed do that.

But I don't get mad about Lucha Underground. I don't feel like they're relevant enough to do any real kind of damage. No one is going to do more damage than WWE itself. They invented the bullshit cartoon wrestling. Any non fan who would want to check out wrestling is going to tune into RAW and they'll either get bored or they'll see what kind horseshit they're pushing and they'll just see pro wrestling as a joke.

I think Jim is full of shit, Lucha is doing no harm to the business. shoving it in your face that it is fake? the whole world knows it is fake. It is not the 80's anymore. Jim need to realize that.

We are going in circles with this so lets just agree on this.

I like Lucha, You don't like Lucha

I think Jim is full of shit, you think he makes a good point

I think ROH is boring, you love ROH

Agree to disagree

I love LU, but I think that might be because it's something that you can watch as "a TV show" rather than "a wrestling show." Yes, there's wrestling in it, but to the same extent that there's boxing in Rocky. It's not a perfect analogy, because wrestling in WWE is fake too, but it's the presentation of it. The focus from LU is much more on the story behind the wrestling, which allows for the more over-the-top style.

It's the only wrestling show I watch, and that's probably because I'd started getting bored of "wrestling" (as in the WWE version of it - I didn't bother watching the last G1 Climax either, so it's not just an anti-WWE thing).

Jason Brown wrote:

what fucking growth? ROH has been in the same fucking place its been in.

AND FUCKING OVW isn't his company. Danny Davis might wanna have a word with you. And even if he did have a lot of help in it...how much money does OVW draw? how big is ovw?

Seriously fuck Jim Cornette. He should just stick to his fucking podcast and talk about the glory days of the midnight express, were he didn't draw the same money as the rock'n roll express and shut the fuck up.

ROH isn't in the same place that it was years ago. That's hilarious. The partnership with NJPW, being on TWO television networks, traveling all across the country and Europe. Having PPV AND iPPV and being able to maintain both of those. But yeah, Ring of Honor is in the same exact spot it was in since it first started. Fuck outta here with that nonsense.

Jim Cornettes problem is that he feels Lucha Underground is blatently showing you that everything is rehearsed during matches. He needs to understand that it's all a different time now and it's not going anyway.

ok yeah it is foolish to say they are in the same place they started, but the way moose and Eeyen was making it out to be that business was sky rocketing for ROH, which it isn't...for any wrestling company in north america. Only thing ROH is still the same at is what they focus on...and that will only get them so far. You can treat it like a real sport all you want and the hardcore fans will eat it up...but i don't think that will get the eyes of the causal eyes. Because people know it isn't a "real" sport. Not saying ROH needs to go full on Sport Entertainment because that will drive away the hardcore eyes, but they need to try to think outside of their comfort zone. If ROH is comfortable in the spot they are in then that is fine, but if they want to try to get more eyes on the product and grow as a company and business...try other things.

plus having a boring World Champion doesn't help. I mean what happen to Jay? He was once entertaining as all hell and now...listening to one of his Heel ROH promos, he sounds generic as fuck.

Dead wrote:

Jim Cornettes problem is that he feels Lucha Underground is blatently showing you that everything is rehearsed during matches. He needs to understand that it's all a different time now and it's not going anyway.

Jim is stuck in the old school mindset and if it isn't done the way he thinks wrestling should be done, then drop a Nuke on it. When I listen to his podcast about Lucha Underground it sounded like an old man being angry at something that is different just because it is different.