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Gobba-Gulak
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PostSubject: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:10 pm

I see this a lot anytime a match is discuss with someone who is well liked vs someone who isn't well liked. Such as CM Punk vs John Cena, or Daniel Bryan vs Ryback

Say like someone said "Cena never put on a good match his whole career." I would say. "He has had amazing matches with CM Punk." The other person will quickly say. "Oh it's just because CM Punk was in the match. CM Punk could wrestle a broom and you get the same outcome."

To me that sounds like the person is saying CM Punk did all the work and Cena just stood there with a dumb smile on his face. Is it fair to give Punk all the credit?

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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:22 pm

That's honestly a bad example, as anyone who thinks Cena can't put on a good match with someone is a idiot anyway. Classics don't happen by one person on their own.

A better example would be say, Cena vs. Khali. That match was tolerable largely due to Cena being good, rather than Khali. It's not to say that Khali didn't put in any good work, but the idea behind it is, if it was someone other than Cena, say Curt Hawkins or Zack Ryder, it wouldn't have been close to as good or tolerable. No full credit should be given to one or the other anyway, but that's just how people will see it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:48 pm

Basically what Ruro said, yeah, it's not that they carried the whole match, they just put on a better workload.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:00 pm

Those people are usually morons. It takes two to tango, as they say. Sometimes one of the athletes puts on a better performance, but rarely to the point where one dude did everything and the other equated to that of a lemon.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:57 pm

Wrestlers like CM Punk are able to keep a match from being shit but you need someone who's able to go out there and have a good match to have a classic.

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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:58 pm

To have a good match you need someone to lead otherwise itll turn into a complete shitfest. In terms of Ryback, he was touted as having some good matches with CM Punk because Punk was leading those matches the entire way through. If John Cena is being led by someone better than him then yeah, the best will be brought out in him, period. Bringing up a match like Cena and Khali is HILARIOUS to me because Khali can not wrestle worth a damn and everyone knows that. He has wrestled HHH, Cena, Undertaker on countless occasions and he was horrendous.

Im sure people will go "OMG YOURE A JOHN CENA HATER FAG OMGZZZZZZZZ" but the fact of the matter is, Cena is not a good wrestler. Yeah, he busts his ass off in the ring but that doesnt mean he has great in ring ability. I just laugh when the precious John Cena gets insulted and everyone comes out of the woodwork to complain about it then turn around and mention other companies like itll make their argument that much more better.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:09 pm

I agree, people that say that kind of stuff are complete morons when it comes to wrestling stuff. ^ *cough cough example cough cough*

If CM Punk is capable of putting on a godly match without Cena, then why has he had shitty matches against other people? If Cena can't wrestle, why has he had good matches with other people? Exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:13 pm

I was gonna reply but then I got annoyed by Dead's post and forgot what I was gonna say.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:26 pm

LOL, my points been proven. People HATE it when you insult John Cena. I get a good chuckle out of the whiny asses.

Quote :
I agree, people that say that kind of stuff are complete morons when it comes to wrestling stuff. ^ *cough cough example cough cough*

If CM Punk is capable of putting on a godly match without Cena, then why has he had shitty matches against other people? If Cena can't wrestle, why has he had good matches with other people? Exactly.
Yep, a complete moron even though ive been watching the product for a long ass time now and ive seen some of the best and some of the worst in all companies, yet im a moron cause i dont drink the koolaid and worship the ground John Cena walks on. Maybe i should dumb it down and go "YAY JOHN CENA IS THE BEST WOO YOU CANT SEE ME" *WAVES HANDS*. Better for you?

Secondly, name all the good matches John Cena has had, that doesnt involve Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Dolph Ziggler among others. Oh wait, you cant.

You would probably think Bret Hart is one of the worst wrestlers of all time because he was all wrestling first and charisma second while thinking Warrior is one of the best of all time because he was an idiot in his promos but sucked as a wrestler.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:32 pm

Some wrestlers don't mesh well together, like Chris Hero vs. Rodrick Strong from Final Battle 2011 or some times its bad booking like Richards vs. Edwards from the same event or Ryback vs. Cena from Extreme Rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:34 pm

Apparently Cena meshes well with everyone, because hes just the best
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:36 pm

@Dead wrote:
Secondly, name all the good matches John Cena has had, that doesnt involve Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Dolph Ziggler among others. Oh wait, you cant.
Umaga from The Royal Rumble. That TLC match with Edge. With Van Dam at One Night Stand. I guess the only one Cena would have to carry was Umaga.

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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:51 pm

Lol. Funny

That can work for anything. "NAME ONE GOOD MATCH HE'S HAD WITH ANYONE EXCEPT EVERY WRESTLER!"
But Moose got it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Umaga was amazing. RIP.

Dead you're on of those overly-smarky people who worship the ground that indy wrestlers walk on. You just don't like Cena because the people you like couldn't be half as successful as him. It's the shit going on nowadays, everyone hates whatever's mainstream.

Cena also had great matches with Orton, RVD, Edge, Umaga, Khali, somewhat tolerable match with Bobby Lashley, Chris Jericho, Edge and Big Show at WM...Want more?
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Cena vs Batista, anyone?
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:01 pm

Batista too. Rey Mysterio, The Miz, JBL, and a lot more.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:04 pm

I tolerated Dead's first post, but in his second post where he stated:
@Dead wrote:
Maybe i should dumb it down and go "YAY JOHN CENA IS THE BEST WOO YOU CANT SEE ME" *WAVES HANDS*. Better for you?

You would probably think Bret Hart is one of the worst wrestlers of all time because he was all wrestling first and charisma second while thinking Warrior is one of the best of all time because he was an idiot in his promos but sucked as a wrestler.
I got a severe migraine. I think I'm going to lie down for a second.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:14 pm

Not a Bret Hart fan i take it?
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:34 pm

@Dead wrote:
Not a Bret Hart fan i take it?
If that's the way you want to construe that comment, I guess. Indifferent

I guess I'm not really a Bret Hart fan, but his matches were amazing and he had some great feuds in the earlier days. Ultimate Warrior is awful.

No, my point was that your posts in this thread are the types of comments a "I'm so smart and nobody else is" wrestling fan would make. That spiel about Cena was so childish I couldn't see anyone older than 14 saying that to someone. Seriously, how can you say Cena doesn't put on good matches? I get so damn tired of always seeing him in the main event and wish they would switch it up, but guess what? The dude puts on good matches nearly every pay per view. His opponents help him put on a better match, but obviously he contributes.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:53 pm

So the whole "oh no hes a moron because he thinks Cena is bad" spiel gets a pass? So let me get this straight, its okay for all the proCena people to insult the ones for no fucking reason but then when someone shits on Cena, all hell breaks loose? thats what i take from that.

It gets a little annoying reading people constantly bitching about me putting down Cena when they themselves put down everyone else who doesnt support Cena in every single way. I got news for most, people dont HAVE to like Cena and you CANT force them to. If you're gonna sit there and tell me i dont know anything about wrestling because i said Cena cant wrestle, then im going to respond, point blank.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:30 pm

You dont like Cena? Whoop de fucking do, join the ranks of many.

While you stick your head up your ass and be ignorant, how about this. Maybe these matches are so good because the worker who isn't being credited is doing their best to make the other person come off as a star shining bright?

Which means Cena is doing what he can to make the opponent come off as a legit contender, Khali, Umaga, Lashley, or he is letting them take their already solid talent and showcase it against someone who makes them look even better than usual, Bryan, Punk, etc...
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:30 pm

This argument's stupid. Opinions are opinions not facts.

To answer the actual question, no, you can't give one person credit for a great match. It takes two solid people in the ring to make a match serviceable. The only time there's a pass in that sort of thing is when it's a match that at the time is just the most mind blowing thing of all (Ultimte Warrior vs. Hulk Hogan instantly comes to mind) or when Kota Ibushi wrestles YOSHIHIKO. shifty
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:46 pm

@Dead wrote:
So the whole "oh no hes a moron because he thinks Cena is bad" spiel gets a pass? So let me get this straight, its okay for all the proCena people to insult the ones for no fucking reason but then when someone shits on Cena, all hell breaks loose? thats what i take from that.

It gets a little annoying reading people constantly bitching about me putting down Cena when they themselves put down everyone else who doesnt support Cena in every single way. I got news for most, people dont HAVE to like Cena and you CANT force them to. If you're gonna sit there and tell me i dont know anything about wrestling because i said Cena cant wrestle, then im going to respond, point blank.
It's not about being a Cena fan. I'm not a Cena fan at all(though I respect the shit out of him), but I'm not going to say his matches suck. He's not the best by any means, but he has had some amazing matches. His matches vs. CM Punk, Edge, Rob Van Dam, Shawn Michaels etc. were great matches and he deserves some credit. Whether or not he was the highlight of those matches or not doesn't matter, they can't take anyone who isn't good and automatically make them have a good match.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:00 am

Firstly, in response to the original question, it's a rare occurrence when someone is carried to the point where they played absolutely no role in the quality of the match. It'd be ridiculous to tout just one person as the carrier.

Now, as for the Cena argument, I've seen this around many times. It's entirely true that Cena's move set isn't as extensive as others' are (say, someone like Bryan, Punk, Ziggler, Aries, Richards, you get the general direction I'm going in). However, Cena has the vital skill of in-ring psychology that is lacking in modern wrestling nowadays and is currently one of the greatest in WWE as far as that skill goes. The only athletes within WWE who are relatively active that I could say have better psychology than Cena are Jericho, Punk, and Christian. Orton and Bryan are probably about even with Cena.

The only individual on the TNA roster who can match up or surpass Cena as far as psychology goes is Kurt Angle (from WWE), with the next probably being Bully Ray (from WWE). Your modern day indie star is going to have a fantastic move set and will likely possess amazing athleticism, but the psychology is usually lacking. Cena has a tremendous storytelling ability in the ring (which, in many schools of thought, is the single most important aspect of a wrestling match, though I know others disagree) and is outstandingly consistent (which is a fact many may have trouble accepting, but how can Cena really be punished for having a lot of short matches with bad booking decisions?) and is able to put on classic matches that way.

If stealing the show was entirely dependent on how good of a brawler, technician and/or high flyer you were, then Cena would pretty much never have had an amazing match since he's only a fairly good brawler and a passable technician. He just happens to know how to pace a match and make the best of the moves he can perform. He didn't do anything particularly interesting against Punk or Bryan (except when he did, as a part of his pacing and psychology (e.g. surprise Suicide Dive on Punk)), yet they'll go down as classics for all time. If you're unable to see Cena as invaluable because of his mental capacities in the ring and are far more interested in the physical and athletic side of wrestling, then Cena will never live up to your standard.
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PostSubject: Re: Is it fair to give one person full credit    Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:30 am

Funny Dead is on an argument spree.

Not really fair to give one person full credit. Depends how hard they work in the ring during that match.

I would write more, but it's probably already been written.
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